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Discussion of "cadga"
[parent] [root]
Comment #5: Re: bi'ai / fau ro da
Curtis W Franks (Thu Aug 13 22:15:41 2015)

krtisfranks wrote:
> spheniscine wrote:
> > Not really. bi'ai is about possibility. cadga / zgadi is about
> > speaker's belief of what morally or justly "should" happen. It's
related
> to
> > ei or iancu.
>
> It is not strictly limited to only morality or justness. It also includes

> one's expectations given any set of premises (such as how the world is,
how
> one thinks the world works, or moral codes and how the world "should"
be).
> But yes.


If you think that these definitions (basically, physical/logical reasoning
and moral/emotional reasoning) should not be conflated, then maybe we can
restrict the definition of cadga or zgadi to only one of these options
and assign the other restricted meaning to the other word.

Comment #6: Re: bi'ai / fau ro da
Curtis W Franks (Thu Aug 13 22:44:20 2015)

krtisfranks wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > spheniscine wrote:
> > > Not really. bi'ai is about possibility. cadga / zgadi is about
> > > speaker's belief of what morally or justly "should" happen. It's
> related
> > to
> > > ei or iancu.
> >
> > It is not strictly limited to only morality or justness. It also
includes
>
> > one's expectations given any set of premises (such as how the world is,

> how
> > one thinks the world works, or moral codes and how the world "should"
> be).
> > But yes.
>
>
> If you think that these definitions (basically, physical/logical
reasoning
> and moral/emotional reasoning) should not be conflated, then maybe we can

> restrict the definition of cadga or zgadi to only one of these
options
> and assign the other restricted meaning to the other word.


For clarity, some examples in English follow.

*"Realistic working of the world" type: You should fear walking down dark
alleys alone. (Because, realistically, you are putting yourself in danger)
*"Moral appeal to an ideal world" type: You should not (have to) fer
walking down dark alleys alone. (In an ideal world, there would be no crime
and, in a perfect moral word, one should not have to fear for their bodily
wellbeing.)
*"Expectation in a hypothetical world that works as one believes" type: If
the Standard Model is true, then there should be the Higgs boson with
certain properties only. (To our best understanding, the result of an
experiment is expected to be something; if the world worked according to
our current "beliefs"/understanding, then our expectations would be right
and the result would have to be of a certain form.)

All of these are "hypothetical" in some way. They are not expectation about
what will really happen (unlike kanpe) but are expectations about would
would/should happen if certain axioms are true. Also, the results are
guaranteed (we expect) in a world that is governed by these axioms, there
is no uncertainty (again, unlike kanpe, which has a scale of
certainty/expectation).

Comment #7: Re: bi'ai / fau ro da
gleki (Fri Aug 14 06:09:40 2015)

krtisfranks wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > spheniscine wrote:
> > > > Not really. bi'ai is about possibility. cadga / zgadi is
about
> > > > speaker's belief of what morally or justly "should" happen. It's
> > related
> > > to
> > > > ei or iancu.
> > >
> > > It is not strictly limited to only morality or justness. It also
> includes
> >
> > > one's expectations given any set of premises (such as how the world
is,
>
> > how
> > > one thinks the world works, or moral codes and how the world "should"

> > be).
> > > But yes.
> >
> >
> > If you think that these definitions (basically, physical/logical
> reasoning
> > and moral/emotional reasoning) should not be conflated, then maybe we
can
>
> > restrict the definition of cadga or zgadi to only one of these
> options
> > and assign the other restricted meaning to the other word.
>
>
> For clarity, some examples in English follow.
>
> *"Realistic working of the world" type: You should fear walking down dark

> alleys alone. (Because, realistically, you are putting yourself in
danger)
> *"Moral appeal to an ideal world" type: You should not (have to) fer
> walking down dark alleys alone. (In an ideal world, there would be no
crime
> and, in a perfect moral word, one should not have to fear for their
bodily
> wellbeing.)
> *"Expectation in a hypothetical world that works as one believes" type:
If
> the Standard Model is true, then there should be the Higgs boson with
> certain properties only. (To our best understanding, the result of an
> experiment is expected to be something; if the world worked according to
> our current "beliefs"/understanding, then our expectations would be right

> and the result would have to be of a certain form.)
>
> All of these are "hypothetical" in some way. They are not expectation
about
> what will really happen (unlike kanpe) but are expectations about would

> would/should happen if certain axioms are true. Also, the results are
> guaranteed (we expect) in a world that is governed by these axioms, there

> is no uncertainty (again, unlike kanpe, which has a scale of
> certainty/expectation).


Then kanpe lo nu ganai brode gi brode with kanpe further expanded into
counting possible worlds.

Comment #8: Re: bi'ai / fau ro da
Curtis W Franks (Sat Aug 15 00:51:03 2015)

gleki wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > > spheniscine wrote:
> > > > > Not really. bi'ai is about possibility. cadga / zgadi is
> about
> > > > > speaker's belief of what morally or justly "should" happen. It's
> > > related
> > > > to
> > > > > ei or iancu.
> > > >
> > > > It is not strictly limited to only morality or justness. It also
> > includes
> > >
> > > > one's expectations given any set of premises (such as how the world

> is,
> >
> > > how
> > > > one thinks the world works, or moral codes and how the world
"should"
>
> > > be).
> > > > But yes.
> > >
> > >
> > > If you think that these definitions (basically, physical/logical
> > reasoning
> > > and moral/emotional reasoning) should not be conflated, then maybe we

> can
> >
> > > restrict the definition of cadga or zgadi to only one of these
> > options
> > > and assign the other restricted meaning to the other word.
> >
> >
> > For clarity, some examples in English follow.
> >
> > *"Realistic working of the world" type: You should fear walking down
dark
>
> > alleys alone. (Because, realistically, you are putting yourself in
> danger)
> > *"Moral appeal to an ideal world" type: You should not (have to) fer
> > walking down dark alleys alone. (In an ideal world, there would be no
> crime
> > and, in a perfect moral word, one should not have to fear for their
> bodily
> > wellbeing.)
> > *"Expectation in a hypothetical world that works as one believes" type:

> If
> > the Standard Model is true, then there should be the Higgs boson with
> > certain properties only. (To our best understanding, the result of an
> > experiment is expected to be something; if the world worked according
to
> > our current "beliefs"/understanding, then our expectations would be
right
>
> > and the result would have to be of a certain form.)
> >
> > All of these are "hypothetical" in some way. They are not expectation
> about
> > what will really happen (unlike kanpe) but are expectations about
would
>
> > would/should happen if certain axioms are true. Also, the results are
> > guaranteed (we expect) in a world that is governed by these axioms,
there
>
> > is no uncertainty (again, unlike kanpe, which has a scale of
> > certainty/expectation).
>
>
> Then kanpe lo nu ganai brode gi brode with kanpe further expanded
into
> counting possible worlds.

Technically, in that case, kanpe is probably more general because it can
range from utter hoping against all odds to subjective guarantee. But that
does not carry the sense that the result is proper or as it should be. This
word connotes a sense of satisfaction with the result/world if it were to
happen/be true. Also, this word is not restricted to events but covers all
abstractions and includes a predicate for the necessary conditions.

Comment #9: Re: bi'ai / fau ro da
gleki (Sat Aug 15 06:21:55 2015)

krtisfranks wrote:
> gleki wrote:
> > Then kanpe lo nu ganai brode gi brode with kanpe further expanded
> into
> > counting possible worlds.
>
> Technically, in that case, kanpe is probably more general because it
can
> range from utter hoping against all odds to subjective guarantee. But
that
> does not carry the sense that the result is proper or as it should be.
This
> word connotes a sense of satisfaction with the result/world if it were to

> happen/be true. Also, this word is not restricted to events but covers
all
> abstractions and includes a predicate for the necessary conditions.

I don't think that kanpe2 must be restricted to events. It's just su'u
there.

the word "moral" confuses me in the def of cadga.

Is it then

ja'i lo marde be x3 va'o x2 x1 bi'ai fasnu ?

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