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Discussion of "di'au"

Comment #1: zu'i
gleki (Fri May 23 06:29:34 2014)

Isn't it just zu'i?

Comment #2: Re: zu'i
Curtis W Franks (Fri May 23 17:05:18 2014)

gleki wrote:
> Isn't it just zu'i?
zu'i references "the typical value". It could possibly (especially given
context) override/ignore/reference something other than the default.
zo'e is usually (when defaults are not present) completely elliptical
and may reference a value that is atypical for that terbri, even based on
context. When a default exists, zo'e might reference only the value
indicated by the default specification given in the definition. (I am not
sure whether this issue has been addressed yet or even recognized.) This
word is meant to explicitly reference the default value for a given
terbri. Doing so might be useful when one wants to acknowledge that there
is a default but forgets what it is, or merely wants to emphasize it. In a
way, this word also eliminates the semantic ambiguity (that exists to
my.knowledge) in the reference of an explicit zo'e in such a context.

Comment #3: Re: zu'i
Curtis W Franks (Fri May 23 17:54:12 2014)

krtisfranks wrote:
> gleki wrote:
> > Isn't it just zu'i?

In order to be more clear:

First of all, to my knowledge, the grammar is currently agnostic on
whether an explicit zo'e in a terbri which has its value defined by
default references/acquires the value of the default or remains completely
general and elliptical. di'ei explicitly overrides the default setting.
di'au explicitly references the value of the definition default.

Second, the default value defined for a terbri of a word is not
necessarily equivalent to the "typical value" that would fill that terbri
in general or based on context. (In some way, a default is supposed to
emulate/acknowledge a certain instance of what could be considered THE
'typical' value, but it is not context-dependent and is essentially an
arbitrary 'decree of God' without any consideration for real-life values.)
For instance, "la .tert. grake" = "la .tert. grake di'au" = "la .tert.
grake li pa" is certainly false (presuming that "la .tert." references the
planet Earth), but "la .tert. grake zi'u" could be true (for instance, it
would be true if the typical value of the number of grams is interpreted
in this case to be, say, the average mass of known (to current humans)
terrestrial (exo)planets that harbor life).

Third, presuming that explict zo'e references a default if it is defined
(and, otherwise, acts in a completely general and elliptic fashion),
di'au is to explicit zo'e as explicit and unnecessary zo'e is to not
explicitly filling a terbri (saying nothing for/ignoring that terbri;
implicit zo'e). In other words, it is just a way to more emphatically
acknowledge that one/the utterer recognizes and means the default value of
that terbri, without actually saying it.

Comment #4: Re: zu'i
gleki (Fri May 23 18:34:16 2014)

It's getting harder for me to remember all your proposals. Could you
please register on mw.lojban.org and create a new page/pages with all your
suggestions copying the definitions and your comments from here.

It could result in something like
http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Tsani%27s_Interpretations:_Abstractor
s
or http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ELG:_Subjunctives_in_detail

Comment #5: Re: zu'i
Curtis W Franks (Fri May 23 19:03:57 2014)

gleki wrote:
> It's getting harder for me to remember all your proposals. Could you
> please register on mw.lojban.org and create a new page/pages with all
your
> suggestions copying the definitions and your comments from here.
>
> It could result in something like
>
http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=Tsani%27s_Interpretations:_Abstractor
> s
> or http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=ELG:_Subjunctives_in_detail

Yes, I will do so. I am not sure that I can do so this weekend (including
today and this upcoming Monday), but by Wednesday, I will do it

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