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Discussion of "jbena"

Comment #1: Asymmetry
Curtis W Franks (Thu Aug 11 11:05:26 2016)

This word is weird in that it has time and place of birth terbri. Why are
other important life events (loss of virginity, marriage, divorce, death,
etc.) not given gismu which are equipped similarly? There maybe should be a
generic word for life event, too ("x1 experienced major life event x2 at
time x3 in location x4"). Sure, this one is the only one that is guaranteed
to anyone with whom one interacts (except death and taxes, in our current
world) and someone actually does it (id est: births) to the subject,
whereas some of the other ones are more passive, but it is still weird.

Or we can introduce a new word which just means "x1 is born to x2".

mivbi'o, which would likely be modelled on mrobi'o, must be factored
into all of these considerations too.

Comment #2: Re: Asymmetry
gleki (Thu Aug 11 23:49:37 2016)

krtisfranks wrote:
> This word is weird in that it has time and place of birth terbri. Why are

> other important life events (loss of virginity, marriage, divorce, death,

> etc.) not given gismu which are equipped similarly? There maybe should be
a
> generic word for life event, too ("x1 experienced major life event x2 at
> time x3 in location x4"). Sure, this one is the only one that is
guaranteed
> to anyone with whom one interacts (except death and taxes, in our current

> world) and someone actually does it (id est: births) to the subject,
> whereas some of the other ones are more passive, but it is still weird.
>
> Or we can introduce a new word which just means "x1 is born to x2".
>
> mivbi'o, which would likely be modelled on mrobi'o, must be factored
> into all of these considerations too.


or just co'a jmive if you don't need jbena2

Comment #3: Re: Asymmetry
Lorenzo Von Matterhorn (Sat Aug 13 04:59:32 2016)

gleki wrote:
> or just co'a jmive if you don't need jbena2

lo cifnu pu lo nu ri jbena cu jmive ne'i lo gutra

Just remove jbena3 and jbena4.

Comment #5: Re: Asymmetry
gleki (Sat Aug 13 05:09:06 2016)

selpahi wrote:
> gleki wrote:
> > or just co'a jmive if you don't need jbena2
>
> lo cifnu pu lo nu ri jbena cu jmive ne'i lo gutra

i na'i pe'i i lo za'e cifnu pu lo nu ri jbena na pe'i cifnu gi'e ja'a pe'i
pagbu lo se tarbi

Comment #6: Re: Asymmetry
gleki (Sat Aug 13 05:09:40 2016)

gleki wrote:
> selpahi wrote:
> > gleki wrote:
> > > or just co'a jmive if you don't need jbena2
> >
> > lo cifnu pu lo nu ri jbena cu jmive ne'i lo gutra
>
> i na'i pe'i i lo za'e cifnu pu lo nu ri jbena na pe'i cifnu gi'e ja'a
pe'i
> pagbu lo se tarbi

i sei mi pu co'u morji se'u coi lo bergu

Comment #7: Re: Asymmetry
gleki (Sun Jan 15 08:47:03 2017)

krtisfranks wrote:
> This word is weird in that it has time and place of birth terbri. Why are

> other important life events (loss of virginity, marriage, divorce, death,

> etc.) not given gismu which are equipped similarly? There maybe should be
a
> generic word for life event, too ("x1 experienced major life event x2 at
> time x3 in location x4"). Sure, this one is the only one that is
guaranteed
> to anyone with whom one interacts (except death and taxes, in our current

> world) and someone actually does it (id est: births) to the subject,
> whereas some of the other ones are more passive, but it is still weird.
>
> Or we can introduce a new word which just means "x1 is born to x2".
>
> mivbi'o, which would likely be modelled on mrobi'o, must be factored
> into all of these considerations too.



oops, discussion got disrupted. In regard to
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=453;natlangword=0;commentid
=3027;definition=453 what I mean is that either 'jbena' is just 'se rorci
[be fi zi'o]' or "co'a jmive" or it's not, in the latter case it can be
important to specify time-place of birth to understand how one is being
"born". if time is understood not as timestamp but as period (born while
stopping being a larva and becoming an imago) and place (moulting out of
your old shell), then dropping jbena3 and jbena4 is unnecessary.

Comment #8: Re: Asymmetry
Curtis W Franks (Mon Jan 16 15:51:43 2017)

gleki wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > This word is weird in that it has time and place of birth terbri. Why
are
>
> > other important life events (loss of virginity, marriage, divorce,
death,
>
> > etc.) not given gismu which are equipped similarly? There maybe should
be
> a
> > generic word for life event, too ("x1 experienced major life event x2
at
> > time x3 in location x4"). Sure, this one is the only one that is
> guaranteed
> > to anyone with whom one interacts (except death and taxes, in our
current
>
> > world) and someone actually does it (id est: births) to the subject,
> > whereas some of the other ones are more passive, but it is still weird.
> >
> > Or we can introduce a new word which just means "x1 is born to x2".
> >
> > mivbi'o, which would likely be modelled on mrobi'o, must be
factored
> > into all of these considerations too.
>
>
>
> oops, discussion got disrupted. In regard to
>
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=453;natlangword=0;commentid
> =3027;definition=453 what I mean is that either 'jbena' is just 'se rorci

> [be fi zi'o]' or "co'a jmive" or it's not, in the latter case it can be
> important to specify time-place of birth to understand how one is being
> "born". if time is understood not as timestamp but as period (born while
> stopping being a larva and becoming an imago) and place (moulting out of
> your old shell), then dropping jbena3 and jbena4 is unnecessary.

That is a good point. But I would have just said "born via means x_i amd by
standard x_j".

Comment #9: Re: Asymmetry
gleki (Sat Jan 21 02:58:58 2017)

krtisfranks wrote:

> gleki wrote:
> > oops, discussion got disrupted. In regard to
> >
>
http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=453;natlangword=0;commentid
> > =3027;definition=453 what I mean is that either 'jbena' is just 'se
rorci
>
> > [be fi zi'o]' or "co'a jmive" or it's not, in the latter case it can be

> > important to specify time-place of birth to understand how one is being

> > "born". if time is understood not as timestamp but as period (born
while
> > stopping being a larva and becoming an imago) and place (moulting out
of
> > your old shell), then dropping jbena3 and jbena4 is unnecessary.
>
> That is a good point. But I would have just said "born via means x_i amd
by
> standard x_j".

So jbena then becomes superfluous since we have co'a panzi or rorci
(the latter for the case ">1 sexes" plus a special viewpoint). For stages
of biodevelopment there needs to be a new brivla completing makcu with
means of getting into the stage. Another brivla might be needed to shows
the circle of life (e.g. imago => egg => larva => imago) like

x1 enters its new stage of development (e.g. by laying eggs) by procreating
your-new-stage/offspring x2 (e.g. eggs of turning yourself into a larva).

This of course immediately leads to the bear-goo problem of "what is
individuum?" but that can be expressed via additional means like ("no
change of individuality from egg to larva" / "change of individuality from
imago to egg")

Comment #4: generally broken
gleki (Sat Aug 13 05:07:06 2016)

some animals are born in the form of egg, in viviparous it's not. what is
jbena for each of these cases? what is jbena for plants (seeds)? is
metamorphosis a nu jbena (egg => larva, larva => chrysalis, chrysalis
=> imago)?

is binary fission a nunjbena process? or such animals are immortal and not
producing offspring?

how are viruses "born"?

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