jbovlaste
a lojban dictionary editing system
User:
Pass:

Home
Get A Printable Dictionary
Search Best Words
Recent Changes
How You Can Help
valsi - All
valsi - Preferred Only
natlang - All
natlang - Preferred Only
Languages
XML Export
user Listing
Report Bugs
Utilities
Status
Help
Admin Request
Create Account
Discussion of "xrotu"
[parent] [root]
Comment #1: Why the symmetry?
Curtis W Franks (Fri Mar 20 03:13:20 2015)

I think that one can be affectionate with something that does not
reciprocate.

Comment #2: Re: Why the symmetry?
Brett Williams (Fri Mar 20 04:25:40 2015)

krtisfranks wrote:
> I think that one can be affectionate with something that
> does not reciprocate.


Ta'o, this adversarial format isn't actually appropriate for sensitive
subjects. It would generally be considered appropriate in such a small
group situation to say something kind before criticizing someone else's
work in such a manner and I think we'd do well to adopt such a custom here
as well.

Ta'onai, it's possible to feel that you are being xrotu with something or
someone who doesn't actually experience being xrocni, but it's a
misperception. For instance to do something that's actually harmful to
someone isn't to be in xrotu with them simply because you feel that you
intended to be.

This is important to me because what I'm centrally discussing is real
encounter, real moments of relationship. The related emotions and
intentions are secondary to the actual mutual symmetrical (or rather, more
deeply, identity-dissolving) encounter. The actual successful encounter of
xrotu is what the emotions and intentions are about, what they're based
upon. To merely intend that encounter is different from and less
fundamental than truly mutually experiencing it.

Comment #3: Re: Why the symmetry?
gleki (Fri Mar 20 07:05:54 2015)

selckiku wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > I think that one can be affectionate with something that
> > does not reciprocate.
>
>
> Ta'o, this adversarial format isn't actually appropriate for sensitive
> subjects. It would generally be considered appropriate in such a small
> group situation to say something kind before criticizing someone else's
> work in such a manner and I think we'd do well to adopt such a custom
here
> as well.
>
> Ta'onai, it's possible to feel that you are being xrotu with something or

> someone who doesn't actually experience being xrocni, but it's a
> misperception. For instance to do something that's actually harmful to
> someone isn't to be in xrotu with them simply because you feel that you
> intended to be.
>
> This is important to me because what I'm centrally discussing is real
> encounter, real moments of relationship. The related emotions and
> intentions are secondary to the actual mutual symmetrical (or rather,
more
> deeply, identity-dissolving) encounter. The actual successful encounter
of
> xrotu is what the emotions and intentions are about, what they're based
> upon. To merely intend that encounter is different from and less
> fundamental than truly mutually experiencing it.


Then maybe one place xrotu could be better with xrotu1 as a te sumti of
plural type.

Comment #4: Re: Why the symmetry?
Brett Williams (Fri Mar 20 17:59:00 2015)

gleki wrote:
>
> Then maybe one place xrotu could be better with
> xrotu1 as a te sumti of plural type.


I agree actually in theory. The problem is that it's much more important to
have it parallel the shape of gletu so they can be smoothly contrasted.
If in practice it were possible to harmonize them by having gletu change
to one plural place for its structure then that might be the way to go, but
alas both estalbished usage and natlang misintuitions weigh against that
change.

It's also not clear yet how exactly these structures relate to events of
gletu or xrotu with more than two participants. It could be that
additional participants can get additional places and they're actually
infinite arity. I guess that's what I'd prefer, but again that requires
some change to our established intuitions.

Comment #5: Re: Why the symmetry?
Curtis W Franks (Sat Mar 21 18:52:09 2015)

selckiku wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > I think that one can be affectionate with something that
> > does not reciprocate.
>
>
> Ta'o, this adversarial format isn't actually appropriate for sensitive
> subjects. It would generally be considered appropriate in such a small
> group situation to say something kind before criticizing someone else's
> work in such a manner and I think we'd do well to adopt such a custom
here
> as well.

I agree. I was not and have never tried to he adversarial toward/with you
or any other jbopre, but I can see how you could feel that way (actually,
this relates to the discussion at hand: intention is not always realized).
I will strive to always express myself in a more respectful and courteous
manner. Additionally, I will try to follow the self-imposed rule (toward at
least you) that always express a positive response to a proposal before
saying anything negative against it; I will literally follow the addage of
not saying anything at all unless slI have something nice to say. I think
that such practice will go a long way toward building up friendlier
interaction between us (at least, explicitly) and it will clarify my
opinions. I have actually always admired your work and held you in the
highest esteem. However, I think that I have had a negativity bias in my
interactions with you and perhaps with the community in general: I have
been much quicker to point out where one is wrong, to point out potential
issues, then I have been to point out where one is right, to point out the
good qualities of the spirit of their work. But those latter aspects are
almost always present and I recognize them in my head. For example, I like
this word and think that it is quite useful; I also find it pleasing to
read and say; in fact, I upvoted it immediately. But you would not know any
of this because I failed to mention it, which is a large fault of mine.

> Ta'onai, it's possible to feel that you are being xrotu with something or

> someone who doesn't actually experience being xrocni, but it's a
> misperception. For instance to do something that's actually harmful to
> someone isn't to be in xrotu with them simply because you feel that you
> intended to be.
>
> This is important to me because what I'm centrally discussing is real
> encounter, real moments of relationship. The related emotions and
> intentions are secondary to the actual mutual symmetrical (or rather,
more
> deeply, identity-dissolving) encounter. The actual successful encounter
of
> xrotu is what the emotions and intentions are about, what they're based
> upon. To merely intend that encounter is different from and less
> fundamental than truly mutually experiencing it.

I understand better now, thank you. I was not intending to critique so much
as wondering what your goal/understanding/intention with/of this word was.
I do find this contrast and utility to be real-life important and
beneficial.

Currently, jbovlaste will accept data for 70 languages.
You are not logged in.

  recent changes jbovlaste main
This is jbovlaste, the lojban dictionary system.
The main code was last changed on Wed 07 Oct 2020 05:54:55 PM PDT.
All content is public domain. By submitting content, you agree to place it in the public domain to the fullest extent allowed by local law.
jbovlaste is an official project of the logical language group, and is now headed by Robin Lee Powell.
E-mail him if you have any questions.
care to log in?