jbovlaste
a lojban dictionary editing system
User:
Pass:

Home
Get A Printable Dictionary
Search Best Words
Recent Changes
How You Can Help
valsi - All
valsi - Preferred Only
natlang - All
natlang - Preferred Only
Languages
XML Export
user Listing
Report Bugs
Utilities
Status
Help
Admin Request
Create Account
Discussion of "su'ai"
[parent] [root]
Comment #10: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
Alex Burka (Sat Dec 27 07:00:48 2014)

gleki wrote:
> durka42 wrote:
> > gleki wrote:
> > > gleki wrote:
> > > > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > > > 2) What does «su'ai JE» (for example) mean, if anything?
> > This case
> > > is
> > > > > less obvious to me in general. It is possible that it does not
> mean
> > > > > anything, despite the syntactic allowance that its
classification
> as
> > > SE
> > > > > provides (confer «by te .e cy»), but I again want to check.
> > > >
> > > > This question would be rather applied to su'ei that doesn't
> > > merge/remove
> > > > any places.
> > >
> > > su'ei explained
> > >
> >
>
here:http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=27812;commentid=1512;
> > > definition=0
> > >
> > > Now "su'ai JA":
> > > "mi ce do ce abu su'ai jo citka" = We three eat only and only if we
> > three
> > > all eat.
> >
> > Er, what? That doesn't make any sense, and "SE JA BRIVLA" does not
> parse.
>
> An issue added to ilmentufa:
> https://github.com/Ilmen-vodhr/ilmentufa/issues/78
>
> It's "mi ce do ce abu su'ai jo" that does't parse, not "su'ai jo broda".
>
> Also ce lists objects to be put into "su'ai jo" function, an evidence
> that JA connectives should have been rather prepositions in this
language
> rather than something similar to ce/ce'o.

It's not an issue with SE+JA -- mi ja broda doesn't work, neither does
mi se ju broda. To use a tanru-internal connective, you need two tanru
units. And I don't see how you get meaning out of mi ce do su'ai jo
citka
in your example -- can you show some intermediate steps, maybe?

Comment #11: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
Alex Burka (Sat Dec 27 07:02:31 2014)

durka42 wrote:
> gleki wrote:
> > durka42 wrote:
> > > gleki wrote:
> > > > gleki wrote:
> > > > > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > > > > 2) What does «su'ai JE» (for example) mean, if anything?
> > > This case
> > > > is
> > > > > > less obvious to me in general. It is possible that it does not
> > mean
> > > > > > anything, despite the syntactic allowance that its
> classification
> > as
> > > > SE
> > > > > > provides (confer «by te .e cy»), but I again want to check.
> > > > >
> > > > > This question would be rather applied to su'ei that doesn't
> > > > merge/remove
> > > > > any places.
> > > >
> > > > su'ei explained
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
here:http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=27812;commentid=1512;
> > > > definition=0
> > > >
> > > > Now "su'ai JA":
> > > > "mi ce do ce abu su'ai jo citka" = We three eat only and only if
we
> > > three
> > > > all eat.
> > >
> > > Er, what? That doesn't make any sense, and "SE JA BRIVLA" does not
> > parse.
> >
> > An issue added to ilmentufa:
> > https://github.com/Ilmen-vodhr/ilmentufa/issues/78
> >
> > It's "mi ce do ce abu su'ai jo" that does't parse, not "su'ai jo
broda".
> >
> > Also ce lists objects to be put into "su'ai jo" function, an
evidence
> > that JA connectives should have been rather prepositions in this
> language
> > rather than something similar to ce/ce'o.
>
> It's not an issue with SE+JA -- mi ja broda doesn't work, neither does
> mi se ju broda. To use a tanru-internal connective, you need two tanru
> units. And I don't see how you get meaning out of mi ce do su'ai jo
> citka
in your example -- can you show some intermediate steps, maybe?

Duplicate post due to braindead formatting.

It's not an issue with SE+JA -- Word mi ja broda not found in database.
doesn't work, neither does "mi se ju broda". To use a tanru-internal
connective, you need two tanru units.

And I don't see how you get meaning out of "mi ce do su'ai jo citka" in
your example -- can you show some intermediate steps, maybe?

Comment #12: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
gleki (Sat Dec 27 08:43:19 2014)

durka42 wrote:
> durka42 wrote:
> > gleki wrote:
> > > durka42 wrote:
> > > > gleki wrote:
> > > > > gleki wrote:
> > > > > > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > > > > > 2) What does «su'ai JE» (for example) mean, if anything?
> > > > This case
> > > > > is
> > > > > > > less obvious to me in general. It is possible that it does
not
> > > mean
> > > > > > > anything, despite the syntactic allowance that its
> > classification
> > > as
> > > > > SE
> > > > > > > provides (confer «by te .e cy»), but I again want to
check.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This question would be rather applied to su'ei that doesn't
> > > > > merge/remove
> > > > > > any places.
> > > > >
> > > > > su'ei explained
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
here:http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/comments.html?valsi=27812;commentid=1512;
> > > > > definition=0
> > > > >
> > > > > Now "su'ai JA":
> > > > > "mi ce do ce abu su'ai jo citka" = We three eat only and only if
> we
> > > > three
> > > > > all eat.
> > > >
> > > > Er, what? That doesn't make any sense, and "SE JA BRIVLA" does not
> > > parse.
> > >
> > > An issue added to ilmentufa:
> > > https://github.com/Ilmen-vodhr/ilmentufa/issues/78
> > >
> > > It's "mi ce do ce abu su'ai jo" that does't parse, not "su'ai jo
> broda".
> > >
> > > Also ce lists objects to be put into "su'ai jo" function, an
> evidence
> > > that JA connectives should have been rather prepositions in this
> > language
> > > rather than something similar to ce/ce'o.
> >
> > It's not an issue with SE+JA -- mi ja broda doesn't work, neither
does
> > mi se ju broda. To use a tanru-internal connective, you need two
tanru
> > units. And I don't see how you get meaning out of mi ce do su'ai jo
> > citka
in your example -- can you show some intermediate steps, maybe?
>
> Duplicate post due to braindead formatting.
>
> It's not an issue with SE+JA -- Word mi ja broda not found in database.
> doesn't work, neither does "mi se ju broda". To use a tanru-internal
> connective, you need two tanru units.
>
> And I don't see how you get meaning out of "mi ce do su'ai jo citka" in
> your example -- can you show some intermediate steps, maybe?


Oh, I thought i explained earlier in this thread. Let's use official
grammar then.
".o" connects two sumti. However, "su'ai .o" puts sumti from the left and
sumti from the right into one left sumti with the right sumti zi'o-fied.

That's why "mi .o do" is the same as "mi ce do su'ai .o"
"mi ce do su'ai .o broda" would show this example better.

Comment #13: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
Alex Burka (Sat Dec 27 18:30:38 2014)

Oh yes, I see. Still I'm not sure it would be worth it to change the
grammar to make this work. For example

"broda be mi je brode" would change from "(broda be mi) je (brode)" to
"broda be (mi je broda)"

(in experimental grmmar) and that would be weird.

Comment #14: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
gleki (Sun Dec 28 06:50:01 2014)

durka42 wrote:
> Oh yes, I see. Still I'm not sure it would be worth it to change the
> grammar to make this work. For example
>
> "broda be mi je brode" would change from "(broda be mi) je (brode)" to
> "broda be (mi je broda)"
>
> (in experimental grmmar) and that would be weird.

It won't change since there is no zi'o generator there. su'ai is one.

Comment #15: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
Alex Burka (Mon Dec 29 04:45:59 2014)

> It won't change since there is no zi'o generator there. su'ai is
one.

Hmm so su'ai modifies the behavior of the following connective so that
it no longer connects things but just attaches to the sumti before it. But
if su'ai has that power it can't be in SE, since the grammar will treat
``su'ai jo the same way as ``se ju.

Comment #16: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
Alex Burka (Mon Dec 29 04:47:51 2014)

durka42 wrote:
> > It won't change since there is no zi'o generator there. su'ai is
> one.
>
> Hmm so su'ai modifies the behavior of the following connective so that
> it no longer connects things but just attaches to the sumti before it.
But
> if su'ai has that power it can't be in SE, since the grammar will
treat
> "su'ai jo" the same way as "se ju".

There's no winning when working with undocumented wiki syntax, is there.
See above quote for corrected version.

Comment #17: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
gleki (Mon Dec 29 06:53:43 2014)

durka42 wrote:
> durka42 wrote:
> > > It won't change since there is no zi'o generator there. su'ai is
> > one.
> >
> > Hmm so su'ai modifies the behavior of the following connective so
that
> > it no longer connects things but just attaches to the sumti before it.
> But
> > if su'ai has that power it can't be in SE, since the grammar will
> treat
> > "su'ai jo" the same way as "se ju".
>
> There's no winning when working with undocumented wiki syntax, is there.
> See above quote for corrected version.


su'ai deletes x2 in selbri and moves its value into a unified x1 where
former x1 and x2 are connected using ce or jo'u depending on your
dialect.

It works exactly the same with connectives: x2 is deleted.

SE changes selbri and that's what is needed here: a new selbri with a new
place structure appears.

If it can't be in SE then okay. Neither it put syntactically a zi'o into
x2 since zi'o can be reached with fe but in "su'ai broda" former x2 can
never be reached again.

So su'ai is rather similar to "zil-" but not zi'o.

Comment #18: Re: Interaction with Modals and Connectives
gleki (Mon Feb 16 16:42:35 2015)

gleki wrote:
> durka42 wrote:
> > > Hmm so su'ai modifies the behavior of the following connective so
> that
> > > it no longer connects things but just attaches to the sumti before
it.
> > But
> > > if su'ai has that power it can't be in SE, since the grammar will
> > treat
> > > "su'ai jo" the same way as "se ju".
> >
>
> SE changes selbri and that's what is needed here: a new selbri with a
new
> place structure appears.
>
> If it can't be in SE then okay. Neither it put syntactically a zi'o into
> x2 since zi'o can be reached with fe but in "su'ai broda" former x2
can
> never be reached again.
>
> So su'ai is rather similar to "zil-" but not zi'o.

xorxes thinks that it's okay to be in SE since e.g. zo'e and zi'o are
both in SE. Not even a subselmaho since zi'o and zo'e are both in koha7.

Thus somewhere in subsubselmaho.

And of course in su'ai jo the word su'ai modifies jo.

Currently, jbovlaste will accept data for 70 languages.
You are not logged in.

  recent changes jbovlaste main
This is jbovlaste, the lojban dictionary system.
The main code was last changed on Wed 07 Oct 2020 05:54:55 PM PDT.
All content is public domain. By submitting content, you agree to place it in the public domain to the fullest extent allowed by local law.
jbovlaste is an official project of the logical language group, and is now headed by Robin Lee Powell.
E-mail him if you have any questions.
care to log in?