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Discussion of "baitni"

Comment #1: What type of unit of information?
Curtis W Franks (Fri Jul 10 07:32:13 2015)

Is it specifically binary or can it be fuzzy? Could it include nats? How
about ternary?

Comment #2: Re: What type of unit of information?
Jonathan (Fri Jul 10 07:50:38 2015)

Sorry, what are nats? Is it like bit, but in base e instead of base 2?

Hm I think bit should be reserved for base 2. If those others are useful
perhaps a variant can be formed from it...

Comment #4: Re: What type of unit of information?
Curtis W Franks (Fri Jul 10 08:01:38 2015)

spheniscine wrote:
> Sorry, what are nats? Is it like bit, but in base e instead of base 2?
>
> Hm I think bit should be reserved for base 2. If those others are useful
> perhaps a variant can be formed from it...

It is exactly that. It is basically the thermodynamic ("natural", in more
than one sense) unit of information.

Maybe something along the lines of bitnrte'o (resp. baitnrte'o?
Possibly additionally, bitni (resp. baitni) could be a generic unit of
information and zi'evla can be formed as above (bitnlre (resp.
baitnlre)), or it can have a new terbri for specifying the base (which I
suggest in any case).

Comment #5: Re: What type of unit of information?
Curtis W Franks (Fri Jul 10 08:01:48 2015)

spheniscine wrote:
> Sorry, what are nats? Is it like bit, but in base e instead of base 2?
>
> Hm I think bit should be reserved for base 2. If those others are useful
> perhaps a variant can be formed from it...

It is exactly that. It is basically the thermodynamic ("natural", in more
than one sense) unit of information.

Maybe something along the lines of bitnrte'o (resp. baitnrte'o)?
Possibly additionally, bitni (resp. baitni) could be a generic unit of
information and zi'evla can be formed as above (bitnlre (resp.
baitnlre)), or it can have a new terbri for specifying the base (which I
suggest in any case).

Comment #6: Re: What type of unit of information?
Jonathan (Fri Jul 10 08:04:18 2015)

OK terbri added.

Comment #7: Re: What type of unit of information?
gleki (Fri Jul 10 22:56:54 2015)

spheniscine wrote:
> OK terbri added.


Not to baitni yet. Strange that we have bi- prefix for nats.

Comment #8: Re: What type of unit of information?
Curtis W Franks (Fri Jul 10 23:29:22 2015)

gleki wrote:
> spheniscine wrote:
> > OK terbri added.
>
>
> Not to baitni yet. Strange that we have bi- prefix for nats.

Well, Lojban can just ignore it. "rel" would be the way to go for a fully
Lojbanic rendering; there is no particular reason for a Lojban speaker to
associate this "bai"/"bi" with anything in particular. So, for them, it is
just a relic of the borrowing, and the one word "bit"/"byte" stands in for
all units of information.

The binary metric prefixes (IEC prefixes) would not apply to nats.

Now that I think about it, I am not sure that it is natural (or even
common) to define a collection of nats in a way that is analogous to the
relationship between a byte and a bit. I seriously doubt that it is eight
nats that comprise this unit.

Comment #9: Re: What type of unit of information?
gleki (Fri Jul 10 23:34:25 2015)

krtisfranks wrote:
> gleki wrote:
> > spheniscine wrote:
> > > OK terbri added.
> >
> >
> > Not to baitni yet. Strange that we have bi- prefix for nats.
>
> Well, Lojban can just ignore it. "rel" would be the way to go for a fully

> Lojbanic rendering; there is no particular reason for a Lojban speaker to

> associate this "bai"/"bi" with anything in particular. So, for them, it
is
> just a relic of the borrowing, and the one word "bit"/"byte" stands in
for
> all units of information.
>
> The binary metric prefixes (IEC prefixes) would not apply to nats.
>
> Now that I think about it, I am not sure that it is natural (or even
> common) to define a collection of nats in a way that is analogous to the
> relationship between a byte and a bit. I seriously doubt that it is eight

> nats that comprise this unit.


Okay, what about trytes?

Comment #10: Re: What type of unit of information?
Curtis W Franks (Fri Jul 10 23:55:05 2015)

gleki wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > gleki wrote:
> > > spheniscine wrote:
> > > > OK terbri added.
> > >
> > >
> > > Not to baitni yet. Strange that we have bi- prefix for nats.
> >
> > Well, Lojban can just ignore it. "rel" would be the way to go for a
fully
>
> > Lojbanic rendering; there is no particular reason for a Lojban speaker
to
>
> > associate this "bai"/"bi" with anything in particular. So, for them, it

> is
> > just a relic of the borrowing, and the one word "bit"/"byte" stands in
> for
> > all units of information.
> >
> > The binary metric prefixes (IEC prefixes) would not apply to nats.
> >
> > Now that I think about it, I am not sure that it is natural (or even
> > common) to define a collection of nats in a way that is analogous to
the
> > relationship between a byte and a bit. I seriously doubt that it is
eight
>
> > nats that comprise this unit.
>
>
> Okay, what about trytes?

That is more problematic and should be addressed. I think that the common
grouping is six trits to the tryte (which still seems a bit weird to me
from a mathematical perspective). We should be able to say that.

Comment #13: Re: What type of unit of information?
Jonathan (Sat Jul 11 22:30:33 2015)

krtisfranks wrote:
> gleki wrote:
> > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > gleki wrote:
> > > > spheniscine wrote:
> > > > > OK terbri added.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Not to baitni yet. Strange that we have bi- prefix for nats.
> > >
> > > Well, Lojban can just ignore it. "rel" would be the way to go for a
> fully
> >
> > > Lojbanic rendering; there is no particular reason for a Lojban
speaker
> to
> >
> > > associate this "bai"/"bi" with anything in particular. So, for them,
it
>
> > is
> > > just a relic of the borrowing, and the one word "bit"/"byte" stands
in
> > for
> > > all units of information.
> > >
> > > The binary metric prefixes (IEC prefixes) would not apply to nats.
> > >
> > > Now that I think about it, I am not sure that it is natural (or even
> > > common) to define a collection of nats in a way that is analogous to
> the
> > > relationship between a byte and a bit. I seriously doubt that it is
> eight
> >
> > > nats that comprise this unit.
> >
> >
> > Okay, what about trytes?
>
> That is more problematic and should be addressed. I think that the common

> grouping is six trits to the tryte (which still seems a bit weird to me
> from a mathematical perspective). We should be able to say that.


lu <bitnymei be li xa bei li ci be'o cei traitni ca'e> li'u mu'a

Comment #14: Re: What type of unit of information?
Jonathan (Sat Jul 11 22:35:47 2015)

spheniscine wrote:
> krtisfranks wrote:
> > gleki wrote:
> > > krtisfranks wrote:
> > > > gleki wrote:
> > > > > spheniscine wrote:
> > > > > > OK terbri added.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Not to baitni yet. Strange that we have bi- prefix for nats.
> > > >
> > > > Well, Lojban can just ignore it. "rel" would be the way to go for a

> > fully
> > >
> > > > Lojbanic rendering; there is no particular reason for a Lojban
> speaker
> > to
> > >
> > > > associate this "bai"/"bi" with anything in particular. So, for
them,
> it
> >
> > > is
> > > > just a relic of the borrowing, and the one word "bit"/"byte" stands

> in
> > > for
> > > > all units of information.
> > > >
> > > > The binary metric prefixes (IEC prefixes) would not apply to nats.
> > > >
> > > > Now that I think about it, I am not sure that it is natural (or
even
> > > > common) to define a collection of nats in a way that is analogous
to
> > the
> > > > relationship between a byte and a bit. I seriously doubt that it is

> > eight
> > >
> > > > nats that comprise this unit.
> > >
> > >
> > > Okay, what about trytes?
> >
> > That is more problematic and should be addressed. I think that the
common
>
> > grouping is six trits to the tryte (which still seems a bit weird to me

> > from a mathematical perspective). We should be able to say that.
>
>
> lu <bitnymei be li xa bei li ci be'o cei traitni ca'e> li'u mu'a
.y. oise'i

.i je'au lu <lo ka ce'u traitni ca'e ce'u cu ka ce'u bitnymei ce'u li xa
li ci> li'u

Comment #11: Re: What type of unit of information?
Jonathan (Sat Jul 11 17:56:50 2015)

I did not add it to baitni because baitni is a zi'evla defined very
specifically as 8 bits, to reflect the common use of "byte" as a unit of
information wrt computers. bitnymei can be used to define additional
units if desired, and has terbri both for number of bits and logarithmic
base.

Comment #12: Re: What type of unit of information?
Jonathan (Sat Jul 11 21:19:44 2015)

IOW, baitni is to bitnymei what zmaile is to minli.

Comment #3: Re: What type of unit of information?
Jonathan (Fri Jul 10 07:57:40 2015)

Alternatively I could add an x4 to bitni; define it as default base 2,
mainly so that lujvo can modify it for nats, trits, and dits.

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