jbovlaste
a lojban dictionary editing system
User:
Pass:

Home
Get A Printable Dictionary
Search Best Words
Recent Changes
How You Can Help
valsi - All
valsi - Preferred Only
natlang - All
natlang - Preferred Only
Languages
XML Export
user Listing
Report Bugs
Utilities
Status
Help
Admin Request
Create Account
Discussion of "poi'i"
[parent] [root]
Comment #11: Re: ???
Lorenzo Von Matterhorn (Thu Dec 25 14:43:15 2014)

krtisfranks asked me to come back to this. A few months ago, I claimed
that the rewrites in terms of "me da poi" do not work. Let me try again to
explain why.

Wuzzy wrote:
> > lo gerku cu poi'i ke'a jersi lo rebla be ke'a
> > "Dogs are such that they chase their own tail."
> With “me”, “da” and “poi”
> “lo gerku cu me da poi ke'a jersi lo rebla be ke'a”

The problem in your paraphrase has not much to do with poi'i, but with
the differences between da and lo, which are not equivalent. da is a
singular variable, and lo is a referring plural expression.

We can see how the kind of paraphrase you propose breaks even without
poi'i.

Let J be the (distributive) predicate "to chase one's own tail". Let G be
"to [be a] dog". Let <= denote the among relation.

lo gerku is the constant g.

J(g) would denote "lo gerku cu jersi lo rebla be vo'a".

If you replace jersi with "me da poi jersi", your logic changes to:

[∃x : J(x)] g <= x

which is false for example when g is plural, and is not the same kind of
statement anyway. It is an existential statement, while the original
phrase makes a claim about certain referents.

So you can't rewrite "lo poi'i" as "da poi" either. lo is plural, da
is singular. lo is a constant, da is a variable and creates scope.
They are not interchangeable.

poi'i (see also: http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=new_voi) is very
useful and allows for more flexibility (see the examples on the page I
linked).

Again, while you can try to come up with paraphrases (I already showed
"ckaji be lo ka ce'u goi ko'a zo'u", which is equivalent but way too
long), it's like trying to prove, say, poi useless by showing that it's
redundant to je.

Currently, jbovlaste will accept data for 70 languages.
You are not logged in.

  recent changes jbovlaste main
This is jbovlaste, the lojban dictionary system.
The main code was last changed on Wed 07 Oct 2020 05:54:55 PM PDT.
All content is public domain. By submitting content, you agree to place it in the public domain to the fullest extent allowed by local law.
jbovlaste is an official project of the logical language group, and is now headed by Robin Lee Powell.
E-mail him if you have any questions.
care to log in?